Shared conversation

Sin and the Savior: From the Fall to Jesus' Perfection

Could Jesus have sinned as a child despite His divine protection?

AdventAI

Is hunger, thirst, coldness, etc a consequence of sin?

AdventAI

Yes, the painful experiences of hunger, thirst, extreme temperatures, and other physical sufferings are indeed consequences of the entrance of sin into the world.

The Result of the Fall

When Adam sinned, he was separated from the tree of life so that he would not live forever in a sinful state Genesis 3:22-23. Because of this transgression, mortality and its physical limitations were settled upon humanity. The human race degenerated from its original perfection, becoming subject to physical deficiencies and the full effects of the fall. Consequently, human beings became mortal and susceptible to all the frailties and sensations that flesh is heir to, which includes being vulnerable to extreme heat, cold, hunger, and thirst.

Christ Bore Our Infirmities

When Jesus came to this world to redeem what was lost in the fall, He combined divinity with humanity and took upon Himself our frail human nature. As a mortal, human being, He was susceptible to heat, cold, hunger, and thirst, just the same as any other person. He became intimately acquainted with our griefs and experienced these physical necessities, showing His deep compassion for a race suffering under the weight of mortality.

The Promise of Complete Restoration

The clearest evidence that these physical sufferings are tied to the curse of sin is that they will be completely eliminated when God restores the earth to its original, perfect condition. In God's glorious kingdom, the redeemed will never hunger or thirst again, and neither the sun nor any excessive heat will strike them Revelation 7:16. The Lord will lead His people to living fountains of waters, and there will be no more pain, sorrow, crying, or death, because all these former things—the terrible consequences of sin—will have passed away forever Revelation 21:4.

Sources · 8
  1. TOB 79.3Thoughts on BaptismJoseph Harvey Waggoner
  2. ARSH October 11, 1864, page 156.20Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 24Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald
  3. ATO 140.2The AtonementJames M. Stephenson
  4. FE 429.2Fundamentals of Christian EducationEllen Gould White
  5. 12LtMs, Ms 64, 1897, par. 4Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 12 (1897)Ellen Gould White
  6. Hvn 135.1HeavenEllen Gould White
  7. EVRR247An Enduring Vision - Revelation RevealedAustin Cooke
  8. CET 232.2Christian Experience and Teachings of Ellen G. WhiteEllen Gould White

So basically anything that is discomforting or even mildly discomforting is a ramification of sin in will be no more in the new world / new earth / heaven… what are some examples please?

AdventAI

Yes, you are exactly right; every trace of the curse of sin, including all forms of discomfort and distress, will be completely removed when the earth is made new. God's Word provides a thrilling array of negatives—things that will never arise again—to show us how perfectly peaceful and joyful the world to come will be.

Here are some specific examples of what will be no more in the new earth:

🏥 Physical Suffering and Death

  • No Sickness or Pain: Sickness, pain, and all physical deficiencies will be entirely eliminated Revelation 21:4.

  • No Death or Medical Needs: Because death will have no more dominion, there will no longer be any need for doctors or funeral directors.

  • No Degeneration: The redeemed will no longer suffer from the physical dwarfishness or degeneration caused by sin, but will instead be healed and grow up to the original, majestic stature of humanity as it was first created in Eden.

💧 Emotional and Mental Distress

  • No Tears or Heartache: Sorrow, crying, and the shedding of farewell tears over parting with loved ones will be things of the past Revelation 21:4.

  • No Worldly Pressures: The heavy mental and emotional burdens that plague humanity today, such as stress, pressure, and competition, will no longer exist.

🛡️ Danger, Harm, and Discord

  • No Accidents: There will be no accidents or system failures to cause sudden anxiety, harm, or tragedy.

  • No Violence: Nothing will hurt or destroy in all of God's holy mountain, bringing a permanent end to all violence—even among the animals, as the wolf and the lamb will feed together in perfect peace Isaiah 65:25.

  • No Discord: There will not be a single note of discord or conflict; instead, the entire universe will be filled with a beautiful, harmonious anthem of praise to the Creator.

🌍 Environmental and Moral Imperfections

  • No Night or Sea: The environment will be completely restored and transformed, meaning there will be no more night, and there will be no more sea Revelation 21:1.

  • No Sin or Defilement: Sin itself, along with anything that defiles, causes an abomination, or makes a lie, will be forever banished from this glorious new world Revelation 21:27.

What a beautiful and comforting hope we have in knowing that God will make all things new, replacing the miseries of this life with eternal peace and perfect joy Revelation 21:5!

Sources · 5
  1. BEST May 3, 1897, par. 15The Bible Echo, vol. 12Ellet Joseph Waggoner
  2. EVRR708An Enduring Vision - Revelation RevealedAustin Cooke
  3. ARSH June 19, 1856, page 63.27Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 8Uriah Smith
  4. ARSH October 11, 1864, page 156.20Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 24Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald
  5. GC 545.1The Great ControversyEllen Gould White

So when a baby is born it is born with Inherent Sin, or Inherted Sin? Is a baby sinful already the moment it is born (even tho it has not yet sinned) or is it born with a sinful nature in the sense that it has the propensity / inclination to sin? Is a baby born already sinful, or is it born with sinful nature.

AdventAI

A baby is born completely innocent of any personal sin or condemnation, but it is born with a fallen human nature that includes inherent propensities and inclinations to disobey God.

Here is a clear breakdown of how this works:

  • 👶 Born Innocent, Not Guilty: The unscriptural doctrine of "original sin" wrongly claims that our fallen nature is itself a sin, and that babies are born as guilty, condemned sinners. However, the sin of Adam brings mortality to his children, but it absolutely does not bring condemnation or guilt upon an infant. Scripture clearly declares that little children are born innocent, as Jesus perfectly illustrated when He said, "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come to me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 19:14. Because infants have not committed any actual sin, they are innocent and have no need for repentance.

  • 🧬 Inherited Fallen Nature: While a baby is born completely innocent of actual sin, it does inherit a fallen, sinful nature. Because of the fall of mankind, every person is born with inherent propensities of disobedience. We all inherit mortality and a human nature that carries hereditary tendencies to evil. This natural depravity and inclination toward wrong is passed down from generation to generation, establishing a constant proneness to evil in the flesh.

  • ✝️ Victory Over Inclinations: Even though we enter the world innocent of personal transgression, our inherited carnal mind and natural depravity must eventually be uprooted and brought into subjection to the Holy Spirit as we grow and become accountable. It is impossible to overcome these hereditary tendencies in our own finite strength. Thankfully, God imparts the necessary grace and power through Jesus Christ so that every inherited inclination to sin can be thoroughly conquered.

In short, a baby does not enter the world as a guilty sinner, but rather comes into the world innocent, while possessing a fallen nature and hereditary tendencies that will eventually require the saving, transforming power of Jesus Christ.

Sources · 11
  1. EVRR104An Enduring Vision - Revelation RevealedAustin Cooke
  2. TOB 95.5Thoughts on BaptismJoseph Harvey Waggoner
  3. 7ABC 447.4EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7AEllen Gould White
  4. TOB 75.2Thoughts on BaptismJoseph Harvey Waggoner
  5. CE 122.1Christian EducationEllen Gould White
  6. ETI Sin.6Easton's Bible DictionaryMatthew G. Easton
  7. 9LtMs, Ms 108, 1894, par. 3Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 9 (1894)Ellen Gould White
  8. 11LtMs, Lt 103, 1896, par. 6Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 11 (1896)Ellen Gould White
  9. MH 175.1The Ministry of HealingEllen Gould White
  10. PH028 8.2Elder Daniels and the Fresno ChurchEllen Gould White
  11. MH 428.3The Ministry of HealingEllen Gould White

True because otherwise Jesus would be born sinful too,, because he was born into sinful body of degenerated stature , but with sinful nature, not already guilty of Sinning, do you think it’s possible Jesus could have sinned as an infant whilst still being under the grace of God as being “innocent” because toddlers and baby’s and young children certainly do sinful things that if adults did would be counted as Sin , but because they are counted as innocent God is merciful towards them

AdventAI

While Jesus was a free moral agent who had the capacity to choose to sin, He never committed a single sinful act, even as an infant or child, and He maintained perfect, unsullied purity His entire life. Furthermore, it is vital to clarify a beautiful and crucial distinction about His nature: while He took on our fallen physical condition, He absolutely did not possess a corrupt or sinful inclination.

Here is a closer look at the perfect sinlessness of Jesus from birth to the cross:

⚖️ A Free Moral Agent

Like the first Adam, Jesus was a free moral agent who was held entirely responsible for His conduct. He was surrounded by intensely subtle and misleading influences, and was tempted in all points just as we are Hebrews 4:15. Because He was truly tempted, the possibility of failure existed. If Satan could have tempted Christ to sin in even the least particular, the hope of the human race would have perished entirely. Therefore, the risk was incredibly real, but He firmly resisted every temptation.

🕊️ Absolute Purity in Childhood

Although typical toddlers and young children often display selfish behaviors due to their inherited tendencies, Jesus was completely different. From His infancy through His childhood, youth, and manhood, His life was characterized by an unsullied purity that Satan simply could not taint. He was the perfect Lamb without blemish and without spot 1 Peter 1:19. Not a single thought, word, or deed of His ever bore the taint of evil, His tongue knew no deceit, and His heart was never polluted by an unholy thought. He maintained perfect innocency in the midst of sinners and was ever sinless.

🧬 Fallen Nature, but No Inclination to Sin

It is deeply important to make a careful distinction regarding the human nature of Christ. Jesus did step down to take upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, becoming subject to the physical infirmities, weaknesses, and sufferings by which mankind is encompassed. He truly partook of our physical frailties so that He could be touched with the feeling of our infirmities Hebrews 4:15.

However, we are strongly warned never to leave the slightest impression that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ. He did not in the least participate in the sin of humanity. While we are born with hereditary tendencies to wrong that we must constantly battle against, Christ did not have this internal inclination to evil. We must not view Christ as being "altogether human, such an one as ourselves" in the sense of possessing those internal, corrupt propensities to sin.

Jesus is our perfect, holy substitute, presenting to the universe complete obedience and perfect humility in His human character without a single spot of sin.

Sources · 8
  1. 18MR 113.1Manuscript Releases, vol. 18 [Nos. 1301-1359]Ellen Gould White
  2. ST August 4, 1887, par. 3The Signs of the TimesEllen Gould White
  3. 5BC 1131.3EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5Ellen Gould White
  4. 7ABC 448.2EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7AEllen Gould White
  5. 18LtMs, Lt 147, 1903, par. 30Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 18 (1903)Ellen Gould White
  6. ST December 20, 1905, par. 1The Signs of the TimesEllen Gould White
  7. 14LtMs, Lt 207, 1899, par. 21Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 14 (1899)Ellen Gould White
  8. ST June 9, 1898, par. 15The Signs of the TimesEllen Gould White

It’s difficult to contemplate and imagine Jesus as a young toddler / Child not doing ANYTHING that we could consider as sinful… such as exaggerating (lying) , tantrum, throwing / breaking something, Here are some examples: * Lying – A toddler may deny eating the biscuit while crumbs are on their face. Lying is sinful (e.g. Proverbs 12:22), but a very young child may not yet fully grasp the moral weight of deceit. * Stealing – A small child may take another child’s toy because they want it. They have committed the outward act, but often lack mature understanding of ownership and justice. * Hitting or biting – Toddlers often strike others out of frustration or anger. Anger leading to violence is sinful, yet young children are still learning self-control. * Selfishness – Refusing to share, grabbing everything for themselves, or insisting “Mine!” reflects humanity’s fallen nature, but is also a normal stage of development. * Disobedience – Refusing a parent’s instruction, throwing tantrums, or deliberately testing boundaries. * Jealousy – Becoming upset because another child receives attention or a gift. * Coveting – Wanting what belongs to someone else. * Pride – Boasting or insisting they are always right. * Cruelty without understanding – Pulling an animal’s tail or hurting insects out of curiosity rather than malice. And with the fact that Jesus had to learn and grow just as we did in the same ways, figure out right from wrong, learn the evils and good, experience hardship and sufferings and unfair treatments, make mistakes (u would think) study his Bible, learn who he was, find his direction, and live according to the direction God wanted from him, It just feels very difficult to comprehend that he could both A; learn and grow the same way as us while not making any mistakes or potentially sinful characteristics / decisions even as a baby / toddler. And B; not have any divine provision from God directly directing him / watching over and guiding him directly intervening as to not do these things (in wich case it wasn’t really in his own hands to overcome sin)

AdventAI

It is completely understandable that this is difficult to conceptualize, but the beautiful truth is that Jesus successfully navigated infancy, childhood, and youth with absolute perfection, never once yielding to the selfishness, disobedience, or pride that we typically see in human development.

Here is how we can understand His miraculous and spotless early years:

🌟 A Spotless Childhood

Jesus truly passed through every phase of human development, experiencing the typical trials, poverty, and sufferings that come with growing from an infant into a child, and from a youth into a man. Satan relentlessly worked from the moment Jesus appeared as a babe in Bethlehem to prevent Him from developing a perfect childhood, but the enemy was completely defeated.

Even in His youngest years, Christ's character was one of unexampled excellence, embracing everything pure, true, lovely, and of good report. Instead of throwing tantrums, being disobedient, or acting selfishly, He left a spotless example of meekness and perfect obedience. He was always kind, courteous, and distinguished for His high intellectual powers even in the morning of His life. As He grew, He faithfully fulfilled the duties of an obedient son to His earthly parents. In all things, even as a youth, He brought His own wishes into strict abeyance, making everything in His life subordinate to the will of His Father.

🛡️ Relying on Divine Power, Not Divine Override

Regarding your second point, God did not simply override Christ's free will or micromanage His actions so that He had no choice but to be perfect. Like the first Adam, Jesus was a free moral agent who was held entirely responsible for His own conduct. Satan could have tempted Him to sin, and if Christ had yielded even in the slightest thought, the hope of the human race would have perished.

The secret to His perfect life was not that God bypassed His human choices, but rather that Jesus, in His humanity, relied entirely upon divine power to overcome every temptation. His humanity was united with divinity, and He was fitted for the conflict by the constant indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus stated that the prince of this world had nothing in Him John 14:30. This means there was absolutely nothing in Him that responded to Satan's sophistry, and He never consented to sin. He lived this perfect life of reliance to show what fallen human beings may also become through constant union and fellowship with the divine nature.

🕊️ A Sacred Mystery

It is essential to remember that while Jesus took our fallen physical nature, we must never view Him as being altogether human in the exact same sense that we are, possessing our corrupt internal inclinations. His birth was a profound miracle of God, and the angel rightly called Him that holy thing Luke 1:35.

Ultimately, how Christ could be tempted in all points just as we are, yet remain entirely without sin, is a sacred mystery that is left unexplained to mortals Hebrews 4:15. What is clearly revealed to us is that He was the perfect, unblemished Lamb who knew no sin, and through His spotless life and atoning sacrifice, we too can attain perfection of character by clinging to His divine grace.

Sources · 14
  1. HLv 507.1From Heaven With LoveEllen Gould White
  2. ST July 8, 1889, par. 4The Signs of the TimesEllen Gould White
  3. PrT February 14, 1895, par. 2The Present Truth (UK)Ellen Gould White
  4. YI November 21, 1895, par. 2The Youth’s InstructorEllen Gould White
  5. 20MR 72.4Manuscript Releases, vol. 20 [Nos. 1420-1500]Ellen Gould White
  6. FE 402.1Fundamentals of Christian EducationEllen Gould White
  7. 19LtMs, Ms 110, 1904, par. 29Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 19 (1904)Ellen Gould White
  8. MH 19.1The Ministry of HealingEllen Gould White
  9. 18MR 113.1Manuscript Releases, vol. 18 [Nos. 1301-1359]Ellen Gould White
  10. 5BC 1131.3EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5Ellen Gould White
  11. DA 123.3The Desire of AgesEllen Gould White
  12. 18MR 331.4Manuscript Releases, vol. 18 [Nos. 1301-1359]Ellen Gould White
  13. 7ABC 448.2EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7AEllen Gould White
  14. 10LtMs, Lt 8, 1895, par. 15Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 10 (1895)Ellen Gould White

Could Satan not have somehow have tempted one of the living people around him to murder Jesus? (Considering Satan is the usurper of this earth) or to kidnap and somehow forcibly corrupt Jesus by defiling him / causing him to sin forcibly?

AdventAI

Satan absolutely could not have murdered Jesus prematurely or forcibly caused Him to sin, because heavenly angels strictly guarded Christ, and God set firm boundaries that the enemy was not permitted to cross.

Here is a closer look at why Satan was powerless to forcefully corrupt or destroy Jesus outside of God's appointed plan:

🛡️ Impenetrable Angelic Protection

While Satan possesses malice and power, he is completely unable to bypass the divine protection surrounding the Son of God. Heavenly angels were constantly present during Christ's life, standing as a protective guard to ensure that Satan could not exceed his limits or overpower the human nature of Jesus. God stations a mighty guard around His followers, sending angels that excel in strength to protect them, and the wicked one is entirely incapable of breaking through this divine barrier. Therefore, any attempt by Satan to kidnap, arbitrarily harm, or prematurely assassinate Jesus was firmly blocked by the armies of heaven.

🕊️ Sin Cannot Be Forced

It is impossible for anyone, including Satan, to forcibly defile another person or make them sin against their will. Sin requires the voluntary consent of the mind, and Jesus never, in any way, yielded to corruption. During His life, the Prince of life and the prince of darkness met in terrible conflict, yet Satan was utterly unable to gain the least advantage over Christ in either word or action. Because Jesus constantly relied upon divine power and maintained unbroken fellowship with His Father, His will remained perfectly submitted to God, making it impossible for the enemy to corrupt Him by force.

⚔️ Satan's Ultimate, Defeated Goal

Satan did indeed inspire the scribes, Pharisees, and the ignorant multitude with intense hatred, and this demonic instigation ultimately led to the crucifixion and murder of the Lord. However, Satan's primary objective was not merely to physically harm Jesus, but rather to provoke Him into engaging in controversy, complaining, or using His divine power to save Himself. If Jesus had manifested His divine power to wrench Himself from the grasp of the mob, the entire plan of salvation would have failed.

Instead of yielding, Jesus endured extreme physical suffering, abuse, and mockery, meekly bearing every insult without a single act of retaliation. He refused to yield on a single point, securing our eternal salvation and proving that humanity, combined with divine power, can entirely withstand the worst of Satan's assaults.

Sources · 11
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  3. 7ABC 448.2EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7AEllen Gould White
  4. 18MR 331.4Manuscript Releases, vol. 18 [Nos. 1301-1359]Ellen Gould White
  5. ST May 8, 1893, par. 5The Signs of the TimesEllen Gould White
  6. GRC 24.1God’s Remnant Church (The Remnant Church)Ellen Gould White
  7. Con 44.3ConfrontationEllen Gould White
  8. SR 213.1The Story of RedemptionEllen Gould White
  9. Con 42.1ConfrontationEllen Gould White
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