p. 162 | BRIEF REPLY by J. B. Frisbie

Publishing Committee · Battle Creek, Mich. · Apr 8, 1858

BRIEF REPLY

By J. B. Frisbie

To a Discourse by Eld. Penfield, Presiding Elder of Grand Rapids District, preached in Wright, Mich., March, 1858.

TEXT. Phil. i. 21. "For me to live, is Christ; and to die is gain."

Eld. P. said it would be gain to Paul to die, and for his immortal soul to go to heaven and be with Christ.

Answer. Paul was in a strait betwixt two, (life or death on the one hand,) having a desire to depart (by translation) and to be with Christ, on the other hand. But to live or die was gain to Christ's cause.

The Eld. went on to state that infidelity was always nearly the same from Voltaire down to the present time. Thus representing us to be infidels for not believing the soul immortal.

Ans. We know that "immortal soul" is not once found in the Bible; and if believing all that is in the Bible, and no more makes us infidels, we plead guilty to the charge. But were Sir Isaac and Bishop Newton, Milton, Archbishops Whately and Tillison infidels for not believing the same?

The rich man and Lazarus were then brought to prove that the dead are conscious in hell and heaven; i. e., their immortal souls. Then he made the statement that this was literal history, and could not be shown to be a parable.

Ans. If this is a literal history, it fails to prove that the immortal souls of these men were in heaven or hell, or that they had immortal souls. The thing to be proved was wanting, and taken for granted or assumed. Suppose we should admit that they were deathless spirits. Would the Elder be ready to admit that they had eyes, tongue and other bodily organs? that literal fire could burn, or literal water cool? We think he would not, knowing his creed. Suppose further, that we admit, as the Catechisms claim, that the "immortal soul is

immaterial, and made out of nothing," and then sing it to be "God's immortal breath;" Going to heaven and hell at death, as taught by his books; then we will let father Wesley preach to him a little on immateriality. "For what is immaterial fire? The same as immaterial water or earth. Both the one and the other is absolute nonsense, a contradiction in terms. Either therefore we must affirm it to be material, or we deny its existence.—Sermons, Vol. II, p. 150. I will apply Wesley's reasoning to the immaterial soul, and deny its existence and consider it "absolute nonsense."

Luke xvi, 19, &c., is a parable, 1st. Because it stands connected with a number of parables in the same discourse, beginning with Luke xv, and ending with chap. xvi. 2d. "For without a parable spake he not unto" that class of hearers addressed in this discourse. 3d. Where has Moses warned of a future hell of torments in his writings? See Deut. xxxii, 22-26. Nowhere.

It is not my work at present to show what it does mean, neither is it necessary as far as any argument against us is concerned.

Moses and Elias were next called up with the claim that it was their immortal souls which were on the Mount. He said that Moses was not raised, and that Elias was John the Baptist.

Ans. We will let his commentator, Dr. Clarke, answer, hoping he will acknowledge his authority.

[Matt. xvii, 3. Moses and Elias.] Elijah came from heaven in the same body which he had upon earth, for he was translated, and did not see death. 2 Kings ii, 11. And the body of Moses was probably raised again, as a pledge of the resurrection." We will say, as far as the argument is concerned, that, it was not necessary that either Moses or Elias should have been there at all, as it was a VISION. Verse 9. "Tell the vision," &c.

The Eld. said the thief on the cross went to paradise that day, and said the grave was not paradise.

Ans. 1. We believe that paradise is the third heaven. 2 Cor. xii, 1-4. 2. This is no proof that the thief had an immortal soul. 3. He did not request to be remembered by Jesus until he came into his kingdom; and he has not come into his kingdom yet. 2 Tim. iv, 1. 4. By reading this reply of Jesus as an interrogative answer, "To-day, shalt thou be with me?" &c., the implied response is, No. This will agree with both Matt. xxvii, 44; Mark xv 32, who say that both thieves reviled him. If one thief was penitent, there is no evidence that he went to heaven that day. To-day, in the text, is the same as the day when he comes into his kingdom.

5. If the thief's soul went to paradise that day, it must have gone there alive; for he was not dead. This was the reason they broke his legs.

6. Three days after, Jesus said he had not yet ascended. John xx, 17.

Eld. P. Absent from the body and present with the Lord. He said this was his immortal soul that went to heaven.

Ans. 1. How did the elder know that it was his immortal soul that went to heaven? O, this was the inference.

2. What body, house or tabernacle had Paul reference to? If it be said the earthly body (which admits of a doubt) then the me and our must be the souls in this body. But how many souls has each body? 2 Cor. v, 1.

3. When does the Apostle expect to be clothed upon with his house from heaven? Ans., [verse 4,] When "mortality is swallowed up of life," which does not take place until the resurrection of the dead, [2 Cor. xv, 53, 54,] which is the clearest evidence that Paul did not expect his crown of life until Christ comes. Col. iii, 4; 2 Tim. iv, 6-8.

Eld. P. They tell us that immortal soul cannot be found in the Bible. Well, what of that? They tell us that deathless spirit cannot be found in the Bible. What of that? Suppose we cannot. God is a Spirit, a deathless Spirit; so man has a deathless spirit.

Ans. A great deal of that. This is the reason that thousands of Bible believers are not believing it, because the Bible does not teach it. Are we infidels

for this? Beasts have spirits. Eccl. iii, 21. Are they deathless too, because God's Spirit is deathless, the only source of immortality? 1 Tim. vi, 16.

Eld. P. If man has no soul then he dies as the brute.

Ans. Eccl. iii, 19. "As the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath: so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast." We believe that man has a preeminence in the resurrection, but not in his death; and that man is all soul, instead of having no soul.

Eld. P. He thought 5000 years was a long time for good Abel to be kept out of heaven.

Ans. We want the Elder to think that poor Cain has been kept out of an awful hell all this time, with many others. Don't forget that.

The Elder next referred to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. "For he is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live unto him."

Ans. This question arose on the subject of the resurrection, and not the intermediate state; and Paul in Rom. iv, 17, speaking of Abraham says: "God who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were?" If they are alive they must be raised.

Eld. P. said the wicked are not annihilated; for matter cannot be annihilated.

Ans. Who pretends that it can? But if souls are "immaterial, and made of nothing" according to the Elder's books, there cannot be anything to be annihilated; for it is nothing to commence with. But we would respectfully inquire of the Elder if the same Cause that produced matter out of nothing, has not the power to resolve it into nonentity again?

Eld. P. said eternal and everlasting were the same original words. Matt. xxv, 46. He knew this, for he could read Greek some.

Ans. This we believe, that they both denote endless duration. For "everlasting punishment," which is "everlasting destruction," [2 Thess. i, 9.] will be as long as everlasting life for the righteous. Death and destruction is the punishment; and everlasting death, not life in misery, is everlasting punishment.

Eld. P. quoted Jude 7: "Suffering eternal fire."

Ans. 2 Pet. ii, 6. Sodom &c., were turned to ashes for an example to all those who should live ungodly. What can this example be good for, unless the wicked shall be burned to ashes in the day of Judgment? 2 Pet. iii, 7; Mat. iv, 1-4. The eternal fire that burned up Sodom was the elements of electricity or lightning. See Josephus. In order to keep them tormented for ever, he had them sinning for ever.

Eld. P. If man had no immortal soul, he said there could be no conversions: he might as well preach to his horse.

Ans. We think it might be as well unless he sheds more light than he did in that sermon, and one on the Trinity some years since.

Eld. P. said if God was a corporeal being, and had eyes, he might become blind; if he had ears, he might become deaf, or might sicken and die.

Ans. We thought we might as well have any kind of a God as to have, according to the Elder's creed, an "immaterial God without body or parts," which is exactly no God at all. See 1st Article of his faith. Also hymn 103. He quoted some poetry of Dr. Young's, and said Christ comes quickly at death to give rewards. Quoted poetry on the death of Bishop McKendry, "He comes to waft my spirit home, All is well, &c." He said, If to be struck out of existence instantly was the punishment, it would be no punishment at all.

I have not endeavored to give the exact words of the speaker, but the ideas. Many hard assertions which he made are not worth noticing. His attempts at proofs, we have endeavored to state as plain as possible, and briefly answer. J. B. FRISBIE.