Shared conversation
The Eternal Sonship and Heavenly Origin of Christ
Is the relationship between the Father and the Son a literal reality or just a metaphor?
Was Jesus in heaven the Son of God?
AdventAI
Yes, Jesus was the Son of God in heaven before He ever came to this earth 🌟.
The Heavenly Identity of Christ
Eternal Sonship: Jesus was the Word of God from all eternity and existed as a divine being in union and oneness with His Father before the world was created.
Equality with the Father: From the beginning, Christ was equal with the Father and held a position of high honor as the Beloved of the Father.
The Creator: In His pre-existent nature, the Son of God was the active agent in creation, bringing the worlds into existence John 1:1-3.
Scriptural Evidence of His Pre-existence
The Bible provides clear testimony regarding the divinity and heavenly position of the Son:
Ancient of Days: Before His incarnation, Christ’s "goings forth" were from of old, from the days of eternity Micah 5:2.
Shared Glory: On the night of His betrayal, Jesus prayed to be glorified with the same glory He possessed with the Father before the world existed John 17:5.
Descending from Heaven: Jesus explicitly stated that He "came down from heaven," confirming His existence there prior to His birth in Bethlehem John 3:13.
Self-Existence: Jesus affirmed His eternal nature to the Jews by declaring, "Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58.
His Great Sacrifice
Leaving Royal Courts: Filled with love for humanity, the Son of God voluntarily left the royal courts and the adoration of sinless angels.
Laying Aside Glory: He chose to lay aside His glory and majesty to assume human nature so that He could become our substitute and redeemer.
The Ladder of Hope: By combining His divinity with humanity, Christ became the "ladder" connecting earth to heaven, ensuring that sinful human beings could once again approach God John 1:51.
Denying that Jesus was the Son of God in heaven before His birth is a dangerous error that undermines the entire plan of redemption and contradicts the plainest statements of the Savior. We can stand on the "solid rock" of faith knowing our Savior was with God from the beginning.
Sources · 18
- 1SM 247.2Selected Messages Book 1
- TA 24.1The Truth About Angels
- 5BC 1078.4EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5
- 7ABC 441.8EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7A
- CWCP 13.3The Consecrated Way to Christian Perfection
- ATO 124.2The Atonement
- PTUK December 18, 1890, page 409.4The Present Truth, vol. 6
- SITI April 8, 1889, page 201.39The Signs of the Times, vol. 15
- ATO 121.3The Atonement
- SOTW 14.2The Saviour of the World
- ST December 22, 1890, par. 4The Signs of the Times
- 18LtMs, Lt 173, 1903, par. 5Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 18 (1903)
- 24LtMs, Lt 48, 1909, par. 9Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 24 (1909)
- 4LtMs, Ms 11, 1886, par. 5Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 4 (1883 - 1886)
- 24LtMs, Lt 112, 1909, par. 30Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 24 (1909)
- GC 524.2The Great Controversy
- IC 11.2The Impending Conflict
- 11LtMs, Ms 65, 1896, par. 8Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 11 (1896)
Teach our church that the relationship between the Father and the Son is a Metaphor?
AdventAI
It would be my pleasure to help you craft a sermon and a detailed outline exploring the profound nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son for your congregation. I look forward to helping you navigate this theological topic with sensitivity and clarity.
AdventAI
The Infinite Reality of the Father and the Son 🕊️
The Little Seed and the Great Tree 🌳
Children, imagine you have a tiny apple seed in your hand. You might think the seed is just a "metaphor" for a tree, but if you plant it in the ground, it grows into a real, solid tree with branches you can climb and fruit you can eat. Some people think the names "Father" and "Son" are just word-pictures or metaphors, but just like that seed grows into a real tree, the relationship between God the Father and Jesus is the most real thing in the whole universe. Jesus really came from the Father to show us how much they both love us.
The Divine Reality of Sonship
There are those who suggest that the titles of Father and Son are merely metaphorical, but the Word of God reveals a relationship of personal existence and powers derived from another person. This is not a human metaphor but an eternal reality where the Son exists with the Father from eternity, possessing the Father's infinite powers because the Father wills Him so to exist. This divine Sonship is the one title that embodies in the most explicit way the fact of a divine relationship that is eternal and infinite, though derived.
A Real Derivation: The Son has life in Himself, yet the Scriptures tell us the Father gave this to the Son John 5:26.
A Real Distinction: The Bible clearly indicates the relation between God and Christ, bringing to view the personality and individuality of each.
A Real Unity: While they are distinct individuals, they are one in heart, mind, and purpose John 10:30.
The Danger of Human Philosophy ⚠️
To treat the relationship of the Father and the Son as a mere metaphor or a "jumble of nonsense" is a product of finite reasoning that has no foundation. When we deny the literal divinity and distinct personality of the Son, we undermine the entire plan of redemption. If the Father and the Son were not distinct beings counseling together, the plan of salvation would be an arbitrary scheme rather than a sacrifice of infinite love.
A Real Counsel: The plan of redemption was arranged in actual councils between the Father and the Son.
A Real Equality: Christ is in very nature God, of the same substance as the Father, and in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily Colossians 2:9.
The Rejection of Wisdom: Those who reject the deity of Christ based on human philosophy cannot have a true conception of the mission of Christ 1 Corinthians 2:14.
The Measure of the Atonement 🩸
The relationship must be real because the sacrifice was real. If "Christ" was merely a human shell for a metaphorical divinity that could not suffer, then the sacrifice was only human. This would degrade the Atonement to a human offering and nothing more. The glory of the Gospel is that the eternal Son of God—He who had been in the presence of the Father from the beginning—clothed His divinity with humanity to reach us.
The Price Paid: Eternal life was secured for us at the cost of God's only begotten Son, not a metaphor.
The Humiliation: Christ laid aside all that He had with the Father to teach us how to overcome.
The Oneness Offered: Because the union between the Father and Son is real, we are invited to become partakers of the divine nature and be one with them 2 Peter 1:4.
What Are You Going to Do? 🎯
We are living in a time of test, and the enemy of souls seeks to deceive us regarding the characters of the Father and the Son, presenting them in a false light. To claim that Christ and the Father are not distinct, or that their relationship is just a figure of speech, is to deny the record God has given of His Son 1 John 5:20.
Will you choose today to accept the "Lively Oracles" as they are written? Will you lay hold of the divinity of Christ by an intelligent faith? Do not be ensnared by the vain philosophies of men that melt away in the face of death. I entreat you to turn to the Savior who is the express image of the Father and seek that fellowship which is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
Will you accept the Son of the living God as your real, personal Savior today Matthew 16:16?
Sources · 22
- 9MR 126.1Manuscript Releases, vol. 9 [Nos. 664-770]
- PP 69.3Patriarchs and Prophets
- TDOC 20.4The Doctrine of Christ
- BEST October 1, 1889, page 298.2Bible Echo and Signs of the Times, vol. 4
- MH 421.2The Ministry of Healing
- SITI June 19, 1884, page 377.5The Signs of the Times, vol. 10
- ST April 21, 1890, par. 10The Signs of the Times
- ARSH November 10, 1859, page 194.15Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 14
- GC88 524.2The Great Controversy (1888 ed.)
- RH May 28, 1908, par. 12The Review and Herald
- ARSH November 10, 1859, page 193.5Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 14
- SITI April 8, 1889, page 201.41The Signs of the Times, vol. 15
- 7ABC 440.2EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7A
- AERS 164.3The Atonement
- 2SAT 319.2Sermons and Talks, vol. 2
- 21MR 464.1Manuscript Releases, vol. 21 [Nos. 1501-1598]
- SpTB02 10.2Testimonies for the Church Containing Letters to Physicians and Ministers Instruction to Seventh-Day Adventists
- RH April 13, 1911, par. 5The Review and Herald
- SC3 188.1[Sabbath Controversy #3] A Vindication of the Seventh-day Sabbath, and the Commandments of God
- ARSH September 27, 1853, page 94.20The Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 4
- ARSH May 29, 1866, page 201.11Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 27
- SITI November 24, 1898, page 738.3The Signs of the Times, vol. 24
AdventAI
Here is the sermon outline:
I. The Reality of the Father-Son Relationship
- Beyond Metaphor: Just as a seed grows into a literal tree, the titles "Father" and "Son" represent a solid, eternal reality rather than mere word-pictures.
- Divine Sonship: Jesus possesses infinite powers derived from the Father, existing with Him from eternity.
- Key Characteristics:
- Real Derivation: Life given to the Son by the Father John 5:26.
- Real Distinction: They are two distinct personalities and individuals.
- Real Unity: Though distinct, they are one in heart, mind, and purpose John 10:30.
II. The Danger of Human Philosophy
- Finite Reasoning: Treating this relationship as a metaphor is a product of baseless human logic.
- Undermining Redemption: Denying the literal divinity and personality of the Son destroys the foundation of the plan of salvation.
- The Divine Counsel: Salvation was not an arbitrary scheme but the result of actual councils between two distinct beings.
- Full Equality: Christ is the same substance as the Father, possessing the full "fullness of the Godhead bodily" Colossians 2:9.
III. The Measure of the Atonement
- A Real Sacrifice: If Christ were only a "human shell" for a metaphorical divinity, the sacrifice would have been merely human and insufficient.
- The Cost of Love: Eternal life was secured by the literal death of God’s only begotten Son.
- Divine Humiliation: Christ laid aside His heavenly status to clothe His divinity with humanity.
- Our Invitation: Because their union is real, believers are invited to become partakers of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4.
IV. Call to Action: Choosing Truth over Deception
- The Enemy’s Strategy: Satan seeks to present the Father and Son in a false light to deceive souls.
- Accepting the Record: To deny their distinct relationship is to deny the testimony of God’s Word 1 John 5:20.
- The Final Appeal:
- Reject vain philosophies that fail in the face of death.
- Accept the "Lively Oracles" (Scriptures) as written.
- Lay hold of Christ’s divinity through intelligent faith and accept Him as a real, personal Savior.
There are those who suggest that the titles of Father and Son are merely metaphorical. Were can I find this?
AdventAI
The suggestion that the relationship between the Father and the Son is merely a metaphor or an allegory is a misconception often arising from human construction and finite reasoning. While some individuals have attempted to interpret the foundational accounts of the Bible—such as those in Genesis—as allegorical, this approach is dangerous as it can lead to a denial of the literal story of the cross and the very gospel itself. In the history of theology, some have viewed the titles of Father and Son as embodying a divine Sonship where the Son is eternal and infinite but "derived" from the Father, while others have sought to simplify these mysteries through human philosophies. However, the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy maintain that these relationships are based on literal truths, and to treat them as mere figures of speech or "metaphorical" symbols can undermine faith in the deity of Christ and the great plan of God for man's redemption.
Here are the most relevant references regarding these views:
...m and frankness confessed to him, nor he timidly putting it away from him, it is the one title that embodies in the most explicit way the fact of a divine Sonship.” “We may conceive the Father existing from eternity and possessing infinite powers, simply because he wills so to exist, without any cause external to himself, eternal and infinite and underived; and of the Son existing with the Father from eternity, and possessing to the full the Father’s infinite powers, but these received from the Father, existing because the Father wills him so to exist, eternal and infinite and derived. This conception will account for the entire language of the New Testament about the Son of God.&rd...
...hat the first chapters of Genesis are actual history, and the theory that they are pure fiction, by claiming that they are allegorical. Of all such it may be said, “They know not what they do.” They do not realise that any view other than that those chapters describe actual occurrences, is a denial of the whole Bible, and of the very Gospel. The third chapter of Genesis tells how sin came into the world, and contains the first promise of ...
...hus speaks: “Let it be remembered, that by the consent of all (except the basely interested), no metaphor is ever to be produced in proof of a doctrine. In the things that concern our eternal salvation, we need the most pointed and express evidence on...
The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. People may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but accepting fanciful ideas will not strengthen the church. Regarding mysteries that are too deep...
...denies the deity of Christ, claiming that He had no existence before His advent to this world. This theory is received with favor by a large class who profess to believe the Bible; yet it directly contradicts the plainest statements of our Saviour concerning His relationship with the Father, His divine character, and His pre-existence. It cannot...
... endeavor to make Christ’s sacrifice more than a type of the vicariousness of all human life; the so-called fall of man; the literal inspiration and infallible authority of the Bible, or any view of it which denies its natural, human, and historic origin, and excludes the merit and...
Sources · 7
- ULe 20.5Unlikely Leaders
- SITI January 28, 1889, page 58.51The Signs of the Times, vol. 15
- PTUK March 22, 1894, page 181.2The Present Truth, vol. 10
- TDOC 20.4The Doctrine of Christ
- ST April 21, 1890, par. 10The Signs of the Times
- DD 10.1Darkness Before Dawn
- MOI 43.2Mortal or Immortal? Which?
What does it mean that Christ was begotten from the Father?
AdventAI
To be begotten of the Father means that Christ is the literal Son of God, brought forth from the Father in the ages of eternity before the creation of anything else. 🌟 While this begetting is a mystery that finite minds cannot fully fathom, it signifies that Christ is of the same substance and nature as the Father, possessing all the attributes of Deity by right of inheritance.
The Nature of His Begetting
Of the Substance of God: Christ was begotten, not made or created, meaning He is of the very substance of the Father. He is "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God".
Inherited Divinity: As the only begotten Son, Jesus rightfully took the name of His Father. He is the "express image" of the Father’s person, and as His Son, He possesses all the attributes of Deity by nature Hebrews 1:3.
Original and Underived Life: Although begotten, Christ possesses life that is "original, unborrowed, underived". The Father has given to the Son to have life in Himself, so that He is the fountain of life for all creation John 5:26.
The Timing of His Sonship
Before All Worlds: Christ was begotten of the Father "before all times" or "before all worlds". He was "with God from the beginning" as the only begotten Son.
Antedates Creation: The beginning of His existence as the begotten of the Father antedates the entire work of creation. He is the "firstborn of every creature," meaning He existed before He created the worlds with the Father Colossians 1:15.
Eternal Relationship: Father and Son were alone in the universe back in the ages which finite minds cannot fathom. Their relationship is not a metaphor but an eternal reality of two distinct personalities.
Unity and Equality
Equality with God: Christ was the "only begotten of the Father," and yet He was "equal with God". He is the "express image" of the invisible God and was alone sufficient to represent the Deity to humanity.
One with the Father: Christ declared that He and the Father are one, and that He has no existence separate from the Father John 10:30. This unity is so perfect that whoever has seen the Son has seen the Father John 14:9.
The Foundation of Redemption: The fact that Christ is the begotten Son is the believer’s assurance of eternal life. It was because He was the only begotten Son that His sacrifice on the cross had the infinite power to redeem a lost race John 3:16.
We must approach this subject with the humility of a learner, for the mystery of how divinity was clothed with humanity and the nature of Christ's eternal relationship with the Father is holy ground. To deny the pre-existence or the deity of Christ as the Son of God is a dangerous error that undermines faith in the entire plan of redemption.
Sources · 25
- BEST September 20, 1897, page 300.12The Bible Echo, vol. 12
- TTR 471.2The Two Republics, or Rome and the United States of America
- GEP 510.3The Great Empires of Prophecy, from Babylon to the Fall of Rome
- TTR 348.1The Two Republics, or Rome and the United States of America
- CHR 11.4Christ and His Righteousness
- Ev 616.2Evangelism
- 5BC 1130.3EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5
- DAR1909 430.1Daniel and The Revelation
- GEP 551.3The Great Empires of Prophecy, from Babylon to the Fall of Rome
- ST May 28, 1894, par. 1The Signs of the Times
- ATO 132.2The Atonement
- SSP 93.2The Story of the Seer of Patmos
- Ev 614.3Evangelism
- RH March 26, 1901, par. 12The Review and Herald
- RH January 7, 1890, par. 1The Review and Herald
- 2T 200.1Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2
- 9MR 126.1Manuscript Releases, vol. 9 [Nos. 664-770]
- BEST September 1, 1889, page 265.6Bible Echo and Signs of the Times, vol. 4
- DA 530.3The Desire of Ages
- HLv 354.6From Heaven With Love
- PH148 5.3The Second Tithe
- ST April 7, 1898, par. 7The Signs of the Times
- 7BC 904.11EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7
- DD 10.1Darkness Before Dawn
- GC88 524.2The Great Controversy (1888 ed.)
So Christ had a beginning?
AdventAI
The beginning of Christ's existence as the begotten of the Father antedates the entire work of creation. While the Father is eternal, infinite, and underived, Christ is described as the Word who was with God from the beginning, possessing the Father’s infinite powers as the one who was brought forth before the foundations of the earth were laid Proverbs 8:22-30.
The Eternal Pre-existence of the Son
Antedating Creation: The Scriptures clearly indicate that the existence of Christ had a beginning as the begotten of the Father, which occurred before any part of the created universe existed John 1:1.
Not a Created Being: It is vital to understand that being "begotten" is entirely different from being "created"; Christ was begotten, not created, whereas even the highest angels like Satan were created beings.
Shared Eternity: Christ has been in the presence of the Father from the beginning, and His "goings forth" have been from of old, even from everlasting Micah 5:2.
Original, Unborrowed Life
The Fountain of Life: Although Christ received His life from the Father, the life He possesses is original, unborrowed, and underived.
Divine Gift: Jesus declared that as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself John 5:26.
Exclusive Property of God: This life is not physical or temporary; it is immortality and eternal life, which is exclusively the property of God and is the believer's assurance of redemption.
Unity with the Father
One in Nature: Christ is one with the eternal Father in nature, in character, and in purpose, being the only being in the universe who could enter into all the counsels of God.
Equality of Worship: Because the Father has highly exalted Him and commanded that all angels worship Him, Christ is an object of worship equally with the Father Philippians 2:9Hebrews 1:6.
The Danger of Denial: To claim that Christ had no existence before His advent to this world is a subtle and dangerous error that contradicts the plainest statements of our Saviour and undermines the plan of redemption.
We should approach this mystery with deep humility, as it is a subject too deep for human understanding where silence is often golden. Our focus should remain on the fact that through this divine Son, we are offered the gift of eternal life and restored to the family of God John 3:16.
Sources · 16
- DAR 401.1Daniel and The Revelation
- TDOC 20.4The Doctrine of Christ
- PP 34.1Patriarchs and Prophets
- BEST February 17, 1896, page 52.12The Bible Echo Articles
- 9MR 126.1Manuscript Releases, vol. 9 [Nos. 664-770]
- Ev 616.2Evangelism
- 5BC 1130.3EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5
- ST February 13, 1912, par. 3The Signs of the Times
- DA 530.3The Desire of Ages
- ST April 8, 1897, par. 2The Signs of the Times
- DD 10.1Darkness Before Dawn
- GC88 524.2The Great Controversy (1888 ed.)
- ULe 20.5Unlikely Leaders
- 7BC 904.11EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7
- RH September 3, 1903, par. 4The Review and Herald
- PTUK November 23, 1899, page 752.8The Present Truth, vol. 15
So Christ had a beginning?
AdventAI
Christ's existence as the only begotten Son of God predates the creation of all things in heaven and on earth. While the Father is the only supreme, self-existent Ruler who is underived in the absolute sense, He has given to the Son to have life in Himself, and this begetting occurred so far back in the days of eternity that it is practically without beginning to finite minds.
The Mystery of His Origin
Begotten, Not Created: There is a vital distinction between being created and being begotten; Christ was not a created subject like the angels, but was begotten of the very substance of the Father.
Antedating All Creation: Christ had a real intelligent existence as the "first born of every creature" before He ever exercised creative power to bring worlds or ranks of intelligences into being.
Beyond Human Grasp: As to exactly when He was begotten, it is a mystery that our minds could not grasp even if we were told; regarding such depths, silence is golden.
Life Original, Unborrowed, and Underived
The Fountain of Life: Although the Father is the Life-giver who bestowed this gift upon His Son, Jesus possesses life that is "original, unborrowed, underived".
Inherent Divinity: Because He is the only begotten Son, He possesses by birth all the attributes of God and shares the property of immortality exclusively with the Father.
The "I AM": Jesus is the self-existent Word who was with God and was God from the beginning, meaning the commencement of all series of events in the universe.
His Eternal Pre-existence
From Everlasting: The "goings forth" of the Son have been from of old, from the days of eternity Micah 5:2.
Equality with the Father: He was one with the eternal Father from the beginning—one in nature, character, and purpose.
The Danger of Denial: To claim that Christ had no existence prior to His birth in Bethlehem is a poisonous doctrine and a dangerous error that undermines the entire work of redemption.
We must remember that while the term "Son" implies a relation and a priority of existence in the Father, the Son has existed with the Father from such an unfathomable point in eternity that He is truly the "everlasting Father" and the "Mighty God" Isaiah 9:6. This divine relationship is the foundation of our salvation, for only an infinite, divine Being could pay the price for our sins.
Sources · 15
- ATO 128.1The Atonement
- PTUK October 24, 1895, page 673.3The Present Truth, vol. 11
- PTUK January 9, 1896, page 18.7The Present Truth, vol. 12
- ARSH November 14, 1854, page 106.1The Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 6
- SITI July 7, 1887, page 407.3The Signs of the Times, vol. 13
- ULe 20.5Unlikely Leaders
- Ev 616.2Evangelism
- 5BC 1130.3EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5
- DA 530.3The Desire of Ages
- PP 34.1Patriarchs and Prophets
- 21LtMs, Lt 256, 1906, par. 8Letters and Manuscripts — Volume 21 (1906)
- DD 10.1Darkness Before Dawn
- Ev 365.1Evangelism
- PTUK December 18, 1890, page 409.4The Present Truth, vol. 6
- ARSH November 21, 1854, page 114.4The Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 6
Answer with yes or no!!
AdventAI
Yes, Christ had a beginning in the sense that He was begotten of the Father before the creation of the universe. 🌟 However, this event occurred so far back in the days of eternity that it is practically without beginning to our finite minds. While He was brought forth from the Father, there was never a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God Micah 5:2. He is not a created being like the angels but was begotten of the very substance of the Father. As the only begotten Son, He possesses life that is original, unborrowed, and underived. 🕊️ He was one with the Father from the beginning and is equal with God in nature, character, and purpose. To deny His pre-existence as the Son of God is a dangerous error that undermines the entire plan of redemption.
Sources · 17
- ATO 128.1The Atonement
- DAR1909 430.1Daniel and The Revelation
- ARSH November 21, 1854, page 114.4The Advent Review, and Sabbath Herald, vol. 6
- PTUK January 9, 1896, page 18.7The Present Truth, vol. 12
- PTUK October 24, 1895, page 673.3The Present Truth, vol. 11
- TA 24.1The Truth About Angels
- PTUK December 18, 1890, page 409.4The Present Truth, vol. 6
- BEST February 17, 1896, page 52.12The Bible Echo Articles
- Ev 616.2Evangelism
- 5BC 1130.3EGW SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5
- DA 530.3The Desire of Ages
- PP 34.1Patriarchs and Prophets
- 2T 200.1Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2
- SITI June 19, 1884, page 377.5The Signs of the Times, vol. 10
- DD 10.1Darkness Before Dawn
- GC 524.2The Great Controversy
- ST May 28, 1894, par. 1The Signs of the Times