QUESTIONS ON IMMORTALITY.
By William S. Ingraham
BY ELD. WILLIAM S. INGRAHAM. As I have been requested by many to have my debate with Eld. Eckles (a Latter-day Saints so-called) published in the REVIEW, I will introduce a summary of the most important arguments brought up, and my replies to the same. To attempt more than this would cover too large a space. The question was as follows:— Resolved, That Reason and the Scriptures teach that man is in possession of an immortal soul or spirit capable of a conscious existence between death and the resurrection, and throughout all eternity, both the righteous and the wicked. Eld. Eckles affirmed.
Wm. S. Ingraham denied. Eckles. Ps. 115: 18: How are David and the righteous going to bless the Lord from this time forth and forevermore, if there is an end to them at death. Reply. The argument is based on the expression from this time forth and forevermore. This language covers only his lifetime, and does not mean to all eternity. Ps. 121: 8 will explain its true meaning: “The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even forevermore.” Here we have the same expression. Dr. Clarke says, “Night and day in all thy business and undertakings, and this through the whole course of thy life.” Ps. 146: 2, 4: “While I live will I praise the Lord; I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.” “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Eckles. What is it in man that counteracts inertia since neither breath, blood, brains, bone, nor flesh can do it? Reply. How can man put himself in motion, or stop after he is in motion? If he is in motion and wishes to stop, he first wills to stop; and secondly, he brings into play the entire physical man to accomplish that end. And this cannot be done without breath, blood, brains, and muscles. How do beasts do the same thing? Eckles. Isa. 57: 1: If the phrase “merciful men are taken away” applies to death, where are they taken to? Not to the grave; for it is on this sphere. Reply. He quotes only a part of the verse. The last clause reads, “None considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.” Eckles. What gives man power to counteract the attraction of gravitation, since neither the material nor gaseous substances composing him can do it? Reply. Can he do it without bringing into action his material organization? No, he cannot. How can the ant, the fly, the grasshopper, counteract the power of gravitation? Is it because they have immortal souls? Eckles. Ezek. 18: 4. As you claim but one part to man and that the material soul (external), what means the language, “Soul of the father,” thus showing that the soul is but a part of the father? Can there be a part of a part, and that part be the whole? Reply. In this question he misrepresents our faith. We believe, with Paul, that man is composed of soul, body, and spirit. But we deny the natural immortality of either. Eckles. How is a man conscious to-day of being the same man or individual he was seven years ago, since he has not the same body owing to the attrition and replacement of particles, if, as you say, organization of matter makes the man entire. Reply. 1. Our faith is not clearly stated in this question, Gen. 2: 7: “The Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” Here we have the man entire. 2. All men are not conscious of being the same persons they were seven years ago. Some have lost their reason and memory. This proves that the mind is not immortal. 3. Others have retained their reason and memory, and from this they know they are the same individuals. But if all minds are immortal, memory and reason could never be lost in any one. What a man knows, he would eternally know. Eckles. If you were slain by a lion in the desert of Africa, when will the Lord redeem his word in requiring your blood of it, since you do not believe they will be resurrected? or if beasts have consciousness after death, man, who is their superior, certainly must have. Reply. This passage is explained in Ex. 21: 28: “If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die; then the ox shall be surely stoned.” If my friend wishes to place me where a man cannot be found to take the life of the lion, I will submit, for his consideration, the following question, If two men are in the desert of Africa, and one is slain by the other, when will the Lord redeem his word in Genesis, which says, “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood by man shall his blood be shed,” since the murderer is beyond the reach of any earthly tribunal? Eckles. What is the vital spark (or life spark) of a man in a trance? Not the breath; for that has ceased to work. Not the blood; for that is congealed. Not the brains; for they are inactive. Not the body; for that is cold and lifeless. Not the warmth about the vitals; for a man just smothered to death has that. What is it? Reply. My friend should first prove the points he has assumed, his ipse dixit is not always correct. 1. How does he know that the blood is congealed so as not to perform its office to a certain extent? 2. How does he know that the brain is inactive? 3. What evidence has he that the body is lifeless? If the body is lifeless there is no life spark left, and his living again would require his resurrection from the dead. I have seen a number in a trance, but have never seen one but what showed signs of life. The body could be cold externally and not be dead but could not be lifeless, without being dead. Wm. Tennant was in a trance three days, but the Dr. discovered signs of life all the time. If the functions of the body should all be suspended for a season it would not follow that man has an immortal soul; for God is able to perform this by miracle. Eckles. Job 14, 22. What is the fact that the flesh belongs to, and what the him that it is upon? Is it not the inward Soul that mourns, to which these two pronouns apply? Reply. The real meaning is this. His flesh upon his person shall have pain, and his heart or mind shall mourn, and not an immortal soul. Eckles. Since the visible matter composing man cannot think any more than the visible cord around the elastic thread can stretch, why is not the thinking property an essence of another material than the body, as well as the stretching or elastic property is an essence of another material than the external thread? What makes a man think? Reply. My friend gets into trouble by reasoning from inanimate matter to animate or living matter. The reason why the rock does not think is because it is not organized for that purpose. But the Lord could make a man out of a rock and breathe the breath of life into him, and thinking would be the result. Eckles. Job 32: 8: If there is a spirit in man, why is it not a spirit out of man? Not some spirit, but a or one spirit. Reply. Why did not my friend give us the whole text? Let us have it: “But there is a spirit in man; and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” The Spirit of God operates upon the mind, and man learns wisdom. The reason why it is not a conscious spirit out of man, is because, when he dies, in that very day his thoughts perish. Ps. 146: 1–4. Eckles. If, as you say, there is no inward consciousness in man, how can calling awake him? Does he first awake, then hear you? If he hears first, then his spirit does not sleep, and must be the thinking power of man; and since it is an element, it cannot be annihilated nor lose its essential properties as is self-evident, and as reason cannot imagine it mortal hence it must be immortal, as far as our intellect can grasp the signification of that word. Reply. Here are four nerves, one transmits sound, another transmits odors, another transmits light, and the fourth transmits sensation: The one that transmits light cannot transmit sound, &c. Destroy the nerve that conveys sound, can you awake the sleeping man? Take the deaf man whose ear drum is destroyed, will calling awake him? Is his immortal soul deaf? What is the matter? Answer, The nerve that transmits sound is destroyed. If not, the noise will follow the telegraph wire or nerve that transmits sound, the impression is made on the brain, and the man is aroused from his slumber. All this can be done without an immortal soul. Eckles. And thou mourn at the last when thy flesh and thy body are consumed. Prov. 5: 11. Reply. It does not say after thy flesh and body are consumed. The whole sentence is adverbial, the word when fixing the time when the consumption takes place, and it is applied by Dr. Clarke to those who die from the effects of debauchery, and the mourning at the time of their death. Read the connection. Eckles. All my appointed time will I wait until my change come. Does Job wait in the grave? Job 14. Reply. Job 17: 13: If I wait the grave is my house. Then Job waits in the grave. Eckles. Call and I will answer. How can Job answer, if he is unconscious. Reply. John 5: 28: Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice. The voice of the Son of God will awaken dead men, and they will respond by coming forth as did Lazarus. Eckles. The mind is an independent entity. Reply. This cannot be. A fracture of the skull will produce unconsciousness. If the mind was independent of the body no disease could affect it. Eckles. The lake of fire in Revelation is mental fire, and fire spoken of in other places used in reference to the punishment of the wicked is the same. Reply. If my friend’s definition is correct, to read it into those texts that speak of fire being the agent used in the punishment of the wicked will make good sense. Let us try it. Mal. 4: 1. “For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up” [with mental fire]. The third verse says that they shall be ashes. Will mental fire burn them to ashes? Matt. 3: 12: Burn up the chaff with unquenchable [mental] fire. Rev. 20: 9: Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. To call this mental fire is to convert the language of the Bible into mental nonsense. The same kind of fire that burns up stubble, chaff, thorns and tares, will burn up the wicked and destroy soul and body in Gehenna or Hell. If my opponent is a Universalist let him say so. Eckles. I believe all men will be saved. The Bible teaches it. Rev. 5: 13: Every thing in Heaven, on earth, in the sea and under the earth will praise God. Reply. The wicked in the resurrection will come up on the breadth of the earth, and fire comes down from heaven and devours them. Then every creature will praise God. Rev. 20. Eckles. Isa. 45: 23, 24: Unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely shall one say, In the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come. Reply. Eld. E., to carry his point, leaves out the word one after shall, and cuts the 24th verse in two leaving out the last part of it. The last clause of verse 24 reads as follows: “And all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.” This proves that two classes are brought to view: 1. The righteous. 2. The wicked, or those that are ashamed. They are ashamed to meet their Judge. Christ will be ashamed of them before his Father. They are to be burned up root and branch. Eckles. Rom. 14: 11: As I live saith the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Reply. 1. When is this confession to be made? 2. Will this confession be the means of their salvation? The preceding verse shows when this confession is to be made. Paul says: For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. What will be the condition of those assembled at the bar of God? Christ sets this question forth in its true light in Matt. 25. Verse 31 speaks of the coming of the Son of Man. Verse 32 says that the nations will be gathered before him and separated. Verse 41 declares that the wicked are to depart into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Does this prove salvation to all? or damnation to a part? The confession of the wicked at the judgment seat of Christ will no more clear them from the penalty of God’s law than the confession of the guilty murderer will save his neck from the gallows. Eckles. 1 Cor. 15: 41, 42. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption: This proves the salvation of all men, but intimates that some will have greater enjoyment than others. Reply. This testimony has reference to the saints, and not to the sinner. The wicked will not be raised at the coming of Christ. Verses 21–23. For since by man74came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (or band): Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. These texts show conclusively that none but the righteous, or those that are Christ’s will be raised at his coming. Compare this with Rev. 20, 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power. Verse 5 proves that the rest of the dead (the accursed and unholy) will not live or be raised until one thousand years after the righteous. What will be the doom of those that come up in the second resurrection? Verse 6: The second death will have power over them. Verses 14, 15: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 1 Cor. 15: 41, 42, quoted by my opponent has no reference to the wicked, but to the righteous as the connection will prove to every candid reader. Paul is here speaking to his brethren. Read verses 1, 30, 49, 50, 51, 58. Behold I show you a mystery. Verse 51. To whom is he speaking? All the world? No. Verse 50. Now this I say brethren. At the last trump the saints will be made immortal. But the poor sinner, will be left to suffer the second death. Doomed to the fire of hell or (gehenna) which will destroy both soul and body. Matt. 10: 28. Eckles. Paul teaches that there is a germ that lives after the body is dead by which man is quickened into life in the resurrection, and this quickening power is the undying soul. 1 Cor. 15: 35–38. Reply. Why don’t Eld. E. prove his assertions and not guess at everything. 1. In saying that the soul is undying, he contradicts the Bible. Eze. 18: 3, 4: The soul that sinneth it shall die. And 2. In declaring that the soul is the germ by which man is raised from the dead he contradicts it again. The whole question turns upon the solution of a very simple question. Is man quickened by virtue of an immortal soul? or by the Spirit of God? Hear Paul, Rom. 8: 11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. By what power is man raised from the dead? Answer: By the Spirit of the living God. Let God’s word live if men’s opinions are doomed to darkness. Eckles. Paul says, Eph. 1: 10, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one, all things in Christ, both which are in Heaven and which are on earth; even in him. Reply. All things in Christ will be gathered. But those that are not in him will not be gathered with the saints. Does my friend Eckles believe that the devil and his angels are to be gathered with the saints? He says all things must embrace all in Heaven and on earth. He must believe in the salvation of the devil; for he is the prince of the world. Jesus says, Matt. 13: 40: “As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.” Eckles. Luke 23: 42, 43: “And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Reply. The thief asked to be remembered at his coming and kingdom, which refers to his second advent. Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to-day, I make the promise now, that when I come in my kingdom I will remember you, and thou shalt be with me in paradise. I say unto thee to-day, is a common expression in the Bible. From the many I will give one example. Zech. 9: 12: “Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope; even to-day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;” a promise made that day that sometime in the future he would render double unto them. Three days after the crucifixion, Jesus said to Mary, Matt. 20: 17, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father. I proved that God was in paradise, consequently the thief did not go to paradise on the day of his death. Eckles. Matt. 17: 1–9: Moses was on the Mount when Christ was transfigured. Reply. Not one word is said about soul or spirit. I have proved that the transfiguration scene represents the kingdom of God, 2 Peter 1: 16, and that Moses was really there. Christ appeared as he will when he comes in his kingly beauty. Elijah was there to represent those that will be translated as he was, without seeing death. And Moses was there to represent those that will be raised at the coming of Christ. Dr. A. Clarke says that Moses was raised as a pledge of the resurrection. He must have been there bodily to represent the literal resurrection of the saints. A disembodied spirit would fail as a figure to fit the picture. Eckles. 1 Peter 3: 18, 19. After Christ was put to death during the time his body was in the grave he went by his spirit and preached to the spirits that were in prison. Reply. E. mistakes the meaning of the apostle. Dr. A. Clarke’s comment clears this passage from all obscurity: “To the spirits in prison.] The inhabitants of the antediluvian world, who, having been disobedient, and convicted of the most flagrant transgressions against God, were sentenced by his just law to destruction. But their punishment was delayed to see if they would repent, and the long-suffering of God waited one hundred and twenty years, which were granted to them for this purpose, during which time as criminals tried and convicted, they are represented as being in prison, detained under the arrest of divine justice which waited either for their repentance, or the expiration of the respite that the punishment pronounced might be inflicted.” The word spirits no more signifies disembodied spirits than Heb. 12: 9, Father of spirits, and Num. 16: 22, the God of the spirits of all flesh, means immortal souls existing out of their bodies. This argument has been up before; but my friend dare not grapple with it. He is famous for evading an argument. Eckles. 2 Cor. 12: 2: Whether in the body or out he could not tell. Paul believed that the soul could exist out of the body. Paul did not refer to himself but another person: I knew a man, &c. Reply. This has no bearing on this subject; for it is the experience of a living man and not a dead one. Eckles. Whether in the body or out he did not know; that is, whether the man referred to was dead or alive he did not know or could not tell. Of such a one, one that had been wrapped in vision, Paul gloried, but did not glory of himself. Paul referred to another person. Reply. Paul was relating his own experience. The expression of such a one I will glory, but not of myself, proves nothing in favor of my friend. In the same text he does glory in his infirmities. He does not exalt himself in consequence of his revelation. And that he might not get exalted, a thorn was given to him in the flesh. These facts show that he refers to himself and not another. Is the soul immortal? is the question. Eckles. Eze. 32 proves that the dead in sheol or pit are conscious. Verses 30 and 31 are evidence of this fact. The dead are represented as talking, and Pharaoh is comforted in the pit or sheol. Reply. This testimony is all allegorical or a figure of speech. Sheol is a place of darkness and silence. Proof. Ps. 6: 5: “In death there is no remembrance of thee; in the grave [sheol] who shall give thee thanks.” Isa. 38: 10: “I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave [sheol].” Ps. 31: 17: “Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave [sheol].” Job. 17: 13: “If I wait, the grave [sheol] is mine house; I have made my bed in the darkness.” Eccl. 9: 10: “There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave [sheol], whither thou goest.” We learn from these passages, 1. That the righteous do not praise God in sheol. 2. That it is a place of darkness. 3. That the wicked and all that go into the grave or sheol are silent; and 4. That there is no knowledge nor wisdom there. And where Ezekiel speaks of men of war in sheol with their military uniform on, and their swords under their heads, and graves in the sides of the pit, he has reference to the ancient mode of the Egyptians burying their dead. But E. would have us believe that the pit is the middle of the earth, and graves in the sides of the pit, graves upon its surface. It was a common thing for the Egyptians to dig large caves in the earth, and in the sides of the cave dig graves one above another. And their talking there is all allegorical. Inanimate matter is often represented as talking. Thus Abel’s blood cried from the ground. All the trees sing at the presence of the Lord. The stone cries out of the wall, and the beams answer it. The rich man lifts up his eyes in hell, or hades. All come under the law of personification. No one can believe that trees sing, stones talk, or blood cries. Neither can the dead talk in sheol really; for all are silent there. Eckles. Rev. 6: 10, 11: Souls under the altar cried. How could they cry if they were unconscious? Reply. These souls were all dead. They were to rest until their brethren were killed as they had been. This proves they were all dead. But how did they cry? Dr. A. Clarke says, “It would be absurd to suppose these souls were in Heaven crying for vengeance. The altar was not in Heaven but on earth—the place where they sacrificed their lives. They cried as did the blood of Abel.” Eckles. Rev. 5: 9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Reply. This refers to all the saints after they are redeemed or raised from the dead, and has no application to immortal souls without bodies. Eckles. Phil. 1: 21, 23: For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain; and to depart and be with Christ, &c. Reply. In the preceding verse he says, “Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.” If I die a martyr, such a death will advance the cause. But which to choose I wot not. I make no choice between living or dying. I leave that with the Lord. For I am in a strait betwixt two, life on one hand and death on the other. But I have a desire to depart, and be with Christ; which is far better, far better than to live or die. Paul desired to be with Christ, but did not expect it until the coming of Christ. Col. 3: 3, 4: Ye are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Eckles. 2 Cor. 5: 8: Paul believed he could be absent from the body and present with the Lord. Reply. My friend is in the habit of scraping the word of God and leaving out that part that would explain the point he refers to. Paul says he was not groaning to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Paul says this mortal shall put on immortality at the last trump. Absent from this mortal body, and present with the Lord by having this mortal body swallowed up of life, or made immortal. Eckles. Matt. 22: 32: “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Conclusion. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, must be living. Reply. Is not God the God of the dead in any sense? Hear Paul in Rom. 14: 9: “For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.” Does this text contradict the other? Not by any means. Christ was not debating the immortality of the soul with the Sadducees. This was not the question. But it was the resurrection of the dead which the Sadducees denied. Verse 31: “But as touching the resurrection of the dead [not the immortality of the soul], have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, &c. God is not the God of the dead who rise not, as you Sadducees believe, but he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; therefore they will be raised from the dead and live again.” Eckles. Soul and spirit are identical—meaning the same. Reply. These terms do not always mean the same thing. Paul speaks of soul, body, and spirit. Eckles. When Paul speaks of soul, body and spirit, the term spirit refers to the Holy Spirit, or Spirit of God in the heart of the Christian. Reply. Let us read the text as it is. 1 Thess. 5: 23: “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The term “spirit” in this text has no reference to the Spirit of God, but to the mind of man. Paul prays that the spirit, soul, and body might be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord. Query. Was God’s Spirit polluted? Was it in danger of going astray? Did Paul pray that the Spirit of God might be sanctified, and pray that it might be kept, after being sanctified, in a sinless state unto the coming of the Lord? To say that the term “spirit” in this text is the Spirit of God is absurd in the extreme. Eckles. On this rock I will I build my church, and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. Can this mean the grave? Has the grave got gates? Reply. This has nothing to do with the question. Is the soul immortal, is the point in debate. But to answer his queries, I answer, Yes, to both of them. The original word translated hell in this text is hades, and means the grave, and he dare not deny it. He asks with a sneer, Has the grave gates? Let the prophet answer. Isa. 38: 10: “I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave; I am deprived of the residue of my years. Eld. Eckles has failed to stand up square to the question. The phrase “immortal soul” has plagued him all the way. This is the point, but he has not proved it. Neither can it be proved by any one living.” To build up the negative, the following order was observed: 4. Argument drawn from those texts that teach expressly that man is mortal and corruptible. Job 4: 17; Rom. 1: 22, 23. The most of my arguments were passed in silence, and an effort was made to evade the plain teaching of those referred to by my opponent. Eckles complained of me bitterly at the end of our debate, because I piled in Bible testimony so fast upon him that he did not have time to get his arguments before the people. Thank the Lord for the Bible.